[Prairie_Beef] [Fwd: RE: pro 2 in california prairie grass fed beef]

Wed Nov 5 18:34:45 CST 2008

Keep in mind that Prop 2 doesn't take effect until 2015.  Thats a lot of
time for it to be modified, or people to figure out ways around it.

This is morbid, but for instance the Prop calls for chickens to have
enough room to flap their wings.  That could be addressed by de-winging
them as chicks - wings are not required to lay eggs.

Kevin

> FYI, the initiative out in California passed.  California is such a big
> market that the changes there could affect the nation.  As I understand
> it, the ruling will virtually ban CAFOs for pork and poultry and greatly
> change rules regarding feedlots for cattle.  To be a little contrarian,
> this could lead to an increase, at least temporarily, in those animal
> management practices elsewhere.
>
> Justin Johnson
> Missouri Prairie Foundation
> Executive Director
> 573-356-7828
> www.moprairie.org
>
> --- On Sat, 10/25/08, Kevin Carpenter <kevinc at mysticplains.org> wrote:
>
> From: Kevin Carpenter <kevinc at mysticplains.org>
> Subject: [Prairie_Beef] [Fwd: RE: pro 2 in california prairie grass fed
> beef]
> To: prairie_beef at mysticplains.org
> Date: Saturday, October 25, 2008, 12:24 PM
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: 	RE: pro 2 in california prairie grass fed beef
> Date: 	Fri, 24 Oct 2008 16:21:45 -0500
> From: 	Steve Clubine <Stephen.Clubine at mdc.mo.gov>
> To: 	Kevin Carpenter <kevinc at mysticplains.org>
> CC: 	carpenter at mysticplains.org <carpenter at mysticplains.org>, Bill White
> <Bill.White at mdc.mo.gov>, Max Alleger <Max.Alleger at mdc.mo.gov>,
> kelly_srigleywerner at fws.gov <kelly_srigleywerner at fws.gov>, Brent Jamison
> <Brent.Jamison at mdc.mo.gov>, holycow at planetkc.com
> <holycow at planetkc.com>
> References:
> <443322.74136.qm at web37101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>,<2f2e63bf0d861595c16b051682d56622.squirrel at www.seaplace.org>
>
> <1F679AAACBA1D54E89145CFE5466CCC205DB4F8FDC at EXCHANGE.mdc.state.mo.us>,<de9021600e7195983128e9bbb21b67fe.squirrel at www.seaplace.org>
>
>
>
>
>
> The amount of time (months) that it takes to get a calf to slaughter
> weight,
> minimum 1100 lb., obviously depends on the rate of gain.  Optimum is 2
> lb/day on
> grass.  Feedlot operators strive for 3-4 lb/day but look what they do to
> acchieve it (read Ombnivores Delemma by Michael Pollan).  If we could
> maintain 2
> lb/day on grass, a calf of 60-80 lb. birth weight could weigh 1100  in 500
> days
> or about a year and 4 months.  We have averaged 2 lb/day on native prairie
> during the patch-burn grazing trials and 2.65 for 90 days this year at
> Buschwhacker C.A.  We ranged from 2.3 to 2.8 on planted nwsg with 60
> lb/ac. N.
> at Seat C.A. from June 1-August.  The N was mainly so we could boost
> stocking
> rate to 1 ac./steer instead of 2 ac./steer and get the higher gain about
> 30 days
> later than we normally would expect to get it on nwsg.  We delayed
> stocking to
> allow for nest initiation.  Today, I worry less about nesting on nwsg and
> would
> move cattle off smooth brome and timothy (or not stock
>  csg at all in the spring) to allow for nesting there.  Based on
> unpublished MO
> data and managers' experience in Ill. and research in SE Nebraska, nests
> in
> idle brome or timothy are significantly more successful than nests in
> prairie or
> nwsg and 4x more successful than nests in tall fescue.  Grazed prairie,
> nwsg, if
> grazed heavily enough, provide good brood cover.  Even severely grazed
> tall
> fescue, if it has enough ragweed and other weeds is readily used by
> broods.
>
> So, devote a small area of tall fescue (10 ac.) as a sacrifice area for
> March-April grazing.  Move yearlings to 1/4 patch-burned nwsg around May
> 1. The
> nwsg acreage constutes about 1/2 of acreage.  The remainder minus 10 ac.
> is
> smooth brome/timothy/alfalfa, preferable adjacent to the nwsg..   Let the
> yearlings have access to the csg around June 1.  Continue grazing free
> choice
> through August, then restrict to brome, timothy, and fescue throughout the
> fall.
> Maintaining 2 lb. gain will take winter annual, in my opinion.  Wheat,
> winter
> oats, barley, rye, and triticale work well and could finish them.
>
> You can remove tall fescue from nwsg and smooth brome using about 1.5 qt.
> glyphosate (e.g. Roundup or Glyphos) and 4-6 oz/a.c imazapic (e.g. Plateau
> or
> Panoramic).  You will lose most the next year's csg production but the
> brome
> and maybe timothy will recover by fall and remain largely fescue free for
> several years.
>
> This a very quick and dirty summary and may not apply to your situation at
> all
> but it is something to think about until next week.
>
> Steve
> ________________________________________
> From: Kevin Carpenter [kevinc at mysticplains.org]
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 3:12 PM
> To: Steve Clubine
> Cc: carpenter at mysticplains.org; Dave Murphy; Bill White; Dave Erickson;
> Bill
> McGuire; fowler at nwf.org; Max Alleger; Mari Macomber;
> mike.currier at dnr.mo.gov;
> ltossing at aol.com; kelly_srigleywerner at fws.gov; jburknwtf at ktis.net;
> jwildman at tnc.org; seekg at grm.net; hddonnell at hotmail.com; Andrew Forbes;
> alan.leary at modot.mo.gov; abuechler at confedmo.org; hazelwoods at mchsi.com;
> burwick.charles at sbcglobal.net; Brent Jamison;
> burwick.charles at sbcglobal.net;
> holycow at planetkc.com
> Subject: RE: pro 2 in california prairie grass fed beef
>
> Thanks Steve.
>
> I had a single reference (an old 1970s "how to raise your own beef for
> food" book) that it took 2 years of growth as the reason you HAD to feed
> grain, with the marbling grain creates as another reason.  Thanks for
> providing confirmation (I never believe anything I only have one reference
> for!)
>
> The grass rotation is something I'm trying to get a good handle on now,
> with my little introduction herd of 10 cow-calf pairs I'm raising in
> cooperation with a local gentleman, Donnie Yantis).  This is brand new for
> both of us, although we have plenty of neighbors willing to provide advice
> ,and fortunately, a hand, when we need one.
>
> I currently have 121 acres (see http://www.mysticplains.org), Donnie has
> 25 acres.  His is mostly mixed csg (heavy with fescue) with a touch of
> wsg, as is mine - although I'm working with John Murphy to favor the wsg
> via burn controls.  We have 50 acres that were tree sheared this year and
> scheduled to be burn next spring.
>
> Patch burn grazing sounds interesting, but I need to integrate it, and the
> other lands we share, into something we can use year round.  Your comments
> about needing CSG is our biggest concern - since its unclear what
> percentages of our lands we should have in each.
>
> Donnie is sympathetic to our prairie restoration effort, but has a
> priority on having healthy, eventually profitable, cattle.  I'm looking to
> mostly restore habitat for the Greater Prairie Chicken and think of the
> cattle as great lawnmowers that I might make some money with as well as
> fill my freezer with.  Oddly, we work well together <smile>.  We have
> both
> seen the MDC publications, and others, that show wsg usage in the summer,
> and csg in the spring and fall - but thats about it, at least for me.
>
> I could really use some help coming up for a comprehensive plan that would
> both benefited the Prairie Chickens and other wildlife, while utilizing
> cattle for field maintenance.  Optimizing into the plan profitable cattle
> management would be a big plus for me, and I suspect an absolute
> requirement for many others.  Alas, I haven't found such a plan available
> anywhere.  Do you have any recommendations, or is this actually "new
> ground", e.g. a first time thing?
>
> Kevin
>
> ps.  I run my own e-mail server, so could easily set up a formal
> distribution list for this topic if that was desired.  It could be either
> public or private as the membership desired (or private for now, and made
> public later...)
>
>> While cost of production might seem that it could be less, there are
>> problems.  One is that optimum rate of gain (over 2 lb. for tenderness)
>> can only be maintained for a few months--May through July on native
>> warm-season, then they have to go to cool-season or something else.
>> Brome
>> and timothy will work in spring before going to nwsg but don't as much
> as
>> fescue in the fall.  Fescue would give the beef an off taste in my
>> opinion, so can too much clover.  Planted annuals-wheat, barley, or oats
>> would work well in fall.  The other problem is that it takes nearly 24
>> months to get an animal to slaughter weight on grass so longer ownership
>> adds to cost of production.  Less fat on the carcass means the producer
>> gets paid for less weight.  That can be made up with higher cost paid by
>> the consumer but they have to recognize that the higher price per pound
>> is
>> because they aren't buying fat.  That works for the prime cuts but
>> marketing hamburger is the challenge.
>>
>> The other great challenge, without going into a lot of detail, will be
>> convincing folks that grazing nwsg and forbs for yearling gain.  We have
>> hardly any examples outside of out pbg trials.  Most nwsg grazing if far
>> too late for anything but mature cows.  Changing to optimum yearling
>> gain,
>> we'd also have to be careful to not create another 100% burn and
>> early-intensive grazing program like in the Flint Hills.  That's were
> pbg
>> comes in.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Kevin Carpenter [kevinc at mysticplains.org]
>> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 12:04 PM
>> To: missouriprairie at yahoo.com
>> Cc: Frank Oberle; Kevin Carpenter; Dave Murphy; Bill White; Dave
>> Erickson;
>> Bill McGuire; fowler at nwf.org; Steve Clubine; Max Alleger; Mari Macomber;
>> "Carol Davit \" <caroldavit at yahoo.com>,
> "@seaplace.org;
>> Steve at seaplace.org; Mowry at seaplace.org; " <stevem4444 at aol.com>,
>> "@seaplace.org; Gelnar at seaplace.org; Dwaine at seaplace.org;
> - at seaplace.org;
>> Columbia at seaplace.org; MO at seaplace.org; "
> <dwaine.gelnar at mo.usda.gov>,
>> "@seaplace.org; Roger at seaplace.org; Hansen at seaplace.org; "
>> <roger.hansen at mo.usda.gov>,  "@seaplace.org; Tim at seaplace.org;
>> Bryant at seaplace.org; " <tbryant at post-dispatch.com>,
> "@seaplace.org;
>> Kelley at seaplace.org; Tim at seaplace.org; - at seaplace.org;
>> Columbia at seaplace.org; MO at seaplace.org; "
> <tim.kelley at mo.usda.gov>,
>> "@seaplace.org; Wayne at seaplace.org; Morton at seaplace.org; "
>> <wayne2946 at yahoo.com>,  "@seaplace.org; Ted at seaplace.org;
>> Cooper at seaplace.org; " <ted at tswllc.com>,  "@seaplace.org;
>> Steve at seaplace.org; Heying at seaplace.org; "
> <ashlandbrdman at yahoo.com>,
>> "@seaplace.org; Mike at seaplace.org; Currier at seaplace.org; "
>> <mike.currier at dnr.mo.gov>,  "@seaplace.org; Linda at seaplace.org;
>> Tossing at seaplace.org; " <ltossing at aol.com>,
> "@seaplace.org;
>> Kelly at seaplace.org; Srigley-Werner at seaplace.org; "
>> <kelly_srigleywerner at fws.gov>,  "@seaplace.org;
> John at seaplace.org;
>> Burk at seaplace.org; " <jburknwtf at ktis.net>,
> "@seaplace.org;
>> Jim at seaplace.org; Wildman at seaplace.org; " <jwildman at tnc.org>,
>> "@seaplace.org; George at seaplace.org; Seek at seaplace.org; "
> <seekg at grm.net>,
>>  "@seaplace.org; Denny at seaplace.org; Donnell at seaplace.org; "
>> <hddonnell at hotmail.com>,  "@seaplace.org; Andrew at seaplace.org;
>> Forbes at seaplace.org; " <andrew.forbes at mdc.mo.gov>,
> "@seaplace.org;
>> Alan at seaplace.org; Leary at seaplace.org; "
> <alan.leary at modot.mo.gov>,
>> "@seaplace.org; Amy at seaplace.org; Buechler at seaplace.org; "
>> <abuechler at confedmo.org>,  "@seaplace.org; Susan at seaplace.org;
>> Hazelwood at seaplace.org; " <hazelwoods at mchsi.com>,
> "@seaplace.org;
>> Charley at seaplace.org; Burwick at seaplace.org; "
>> <burwick.charles at sbcglobal.net>"@seaplace.org
>> Subject: Re: pro 2 in california prairie grass fed beef
>>
>> One minor difference in opinion - I'm not sure we really need to sell
> at a
>> premium.  In theory, our cost should be lower than grain feed beef. If
>> so,
>> we should be able to out-compete the grain feed business in the long
>> run.
>>
>> If that happens, not only do we produce beef in a sustainable method, we
>> put those that don't out of business.
>>
>> My concern is that the labor cost for this approach is going to be
>> higher
>> than the grain fed mechanized approach.  The question becomes: "Does
> the
>> reduction in raising cost offset the additional labor and/or land
> cost?".
>>
>> If it does, eventually the big producers will figure it out and flood
>> the
>> market with similar beef - perhaps not hormone and antibiotic free - but
>> still with the the omega acid ratios and other related health benefits -
>> for a lower cost then skipping the growth hormones for beef not destined
>> for reproduction, and saving the beef that might otherwise die of
>> illness.
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>>> Frank and group--
>>>
>>> Thanks for continuing this discussion.  As I've been saying since
> 2006,
>>> if
>>> we're going to make a real difference on the landscape, our best
> bet is
>>> to
>>> help existing producers or those interested in beginning a career in
>>> sustainable agriculture to create new markets for grass fed beef.
>>> Imagine
>>> 20,000 or even 50,000 acres in Missouri with a mix of prairie grasses,
>>> cool seasons and other forages that result in a healthy product that
> can
>>> be sold at a premium price and which leaves the landscape open,
>>> beautiful
>>> and full of wildlife.
>>>
>>> It is important to note that US Wellness Meats is located in Doniphan
>>> and
>>> that American Grassfed Beef is located in Monticello.  We need to find
>>> out
>>> how many acres they graze, how many head they run and how many
> customers
>>> they serve.  There is a difference between healthy beef and healthy,
>>> wildlife-friendly landscapes, so we need to work for the right
> balance.
>>>
>>> Based on the work that Max Alleger has done with Joe Horner and others
>>> to
>>> get the economic and marketing discussions going, I'm very hopeful
> for
>>> the
>>> future.
>>>
>>> We need what investors call an "anchor customer" to supply
> consistent
>>> demand.  Whether that is Whole Foods or Bill Kurtis' Tallgrass
> Beef or
>>> Chipotle or something else, I am confident that Missouri can produce
> the
>>> best tallgrass beef in the nation.
>>>
>>> Justin Johnson
>>> Missouri Prairie Foundation
>>> Executive Director
>>> 573-356-7828
>>> www.moprairie.org
>>>
>>> --- On Sun, 10/19/08, Frank Oberle <foberle at nemr.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Frank Oberle <foberle at nemr.net>
>>> Subject: Re: pro 2 in california prairie grass fed beef
>>> To: "Frank Oberle" <foberle at nemr.net>, "Kevin
> Carpenter"
>>> <kevinc at mysticplains.org>, "Dave Murphy"
> <dmurphy at confedmo.org>, "Bill
>>> White" <bill.white at mdc.mo.gov>, "David Erickson"
>>> <David.Erickson at mdc.mo.gov>, "Bill McGuire"
> <Bill.McGuire at mdc.mo.gov>,
>>> fowler at nwf.org, "Steve Clubine"
> <Steve.Clubine at mdc.mo.gov>, "Max
>>> Alleger"
>>> <Max.Alleger at mdc.mo.gov>, "Mari Macomber"
>>> <mmacomber at kirksvillecity.com>,
>>> "Carol Davit (Large Files)" <caroldavit at yahoo.com>,
> "Steve Mowry"
>>> <stevem4444 at aol.com>, "Justin Johnson"
> <missouriprairie at yahoo.com>,
>>> "Gelnar, Dwaine - Columbia, MO"
> <dwaine.gelnar at mo.usda.gov>, "Roger
>>> Hansen" <roger.hansen at mo.usda.gov>, "Tim Bryant"
>>> <TBryant at post-dispatch.com>, "Kelley, Tim - Columbia,
> MO"
>>> <tim.kelley at mo.usda.gov>, "Wayne Morton"
> <wayne2946 at yahoo.com>, "Ted
>>> Cooper" <ted at tswllc.com>, "Steve Heying"
> <ashlandbrdman at yahoo.com>,
>>> "Mike
>>> Currier" <Mike.Currier at dnr.mo.gov>, "Linda
> Tossing" <Ltossing at aol.com>,
>>> "Kelly Srigley-Werner"
>>>  <Kelly_SrigleyWerner at fws.gov>, "John Burk"
> <jburknwtf at ktis.net>, "Jim
>>> Wildman" <jwildman at tnc.org>, "George Seek"
> <seekg at grm.net>, "Denny
>>> Donnell" <hddonnell at hotmail.com>, "Andrew Forbes"
>>> <andrew.forbes at mdc.mo.gov>, "Alan Leary"
> <alan.leary at modot.mo.gov>, "Amy
>>> Buechler" <abuechler at confedmo.org>, "Susan
> Hazelwood"
>>> <hazelwoods at mchsi.com>, "Charley Burwick"
>>> <burwick.charles at sbcglobal.net>
>>> Date: Sunday, October 19, 2008, 9:47 PM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> More info on others telling a similar story:
>>>
>>>
> http://www.grasslandbeef.com/StoreFront.bok?gclid=CNOv2aDUtJYCFQNbxwod5k02Lw
>>>
>>> http://www.eatwild.com/
>>>
>>> http://www.americangrassfedbeef.com/
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Frank Oberle
>>> To: Kevin Carpenter ; Dave Murphy ; Bill White ; David Erickson ; Bill
>>> McGuire ; fowler at nwf.org ; Steve Clubine ; Max Alleger ; Mari Macomber
> ;
>>> Carol Davit (Large Files) ; Steve Mowry ; Justin Johnson ; Gelnar,
>>> Dwaine
>>> - Columbia, MO ; Roger Hansen ; Tim Bryant ; Kelley, Tim - Columbia,
> MO
>>> ;
>>> Wayne Morton ; Ted Cooper ; Steve Heying ; Mike Currier ; Linda
> Tossing
>>> ;
>>> Kelly Srigley-Werner ; John Burk ; Jim Wildman ; George Seek ; Denny
>>> Donnell ; Andrew Forbes ; Alan Leary ; Amy Buechler ; Susan Hazelwood
> ;
>>> Charley Burwick
>>> Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 6:04 PM
>>> Subject: pro 2 in california prairie grass fed beef
>>>
>>>
>>> Something to think About,
>>>       How could the extreme measures that PROPOSITION 2 create for
>>> animal
>>> confinement practices in California, if voters approve, benefit
>>> conservation and bring added value to our grasslands here in the
>>> Midwest.
>>> Firstly, view the web site of PROP 2.
>>> Next view the web site of tallgrass fed beef. Grass likes to grow
>>> standing
>>> in place. Cows like to move to growing grass. The current practices of
>>> cutting grass and corn and bringing it to livestock confined to small
>>> spaces seems odd. With all the Whole Food stores burgeoning in our
> urban
>>> areas and the consumer demand for less toxins in their foods--like
>>> growth
>>> hormones, lower cholesterol meats--I believe now is the time to
> promote
>>> the sustainability of our native forages and what science espouses and
>>> the
>>> healthiest choices. It is a win win for producers,
> wildlife/environment
>>> and the public's nutritional needs. frank oberle
>>>
>>>  http://www.tallgrassbeef.com/index.php
>>>
>>> http://yesonprop2.com/
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>
>
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